Developers’ Talk 3 – Full of Development Secrets! Vanillaware Infiltration Interview
開発陣発言集③ 制作秘話満載のヴァニラウェア潜入インタビュー
Taken from: 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim – Official Preservation Record: Double Helix
十三機兵防衛圏 公式保存記録: Double Helix
ISBN: 9784047334816
Initial publication: Dengeki Online, February 10th/12th/13th, 2020
初出: 電撃オンライン 2020年02月10日/12日/13日
*This interview contains spoilers for the entirety of 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim. Please take note before reading on!
We’re now in Osaka, where Vanillaware Ltd. is located. For this interview, we enter the floor containing the development studio, and speak to representatives from the company: George Kamitani-shi, the designer Koichi Maenou-shi, and character designer Yukiko Hirai-shi.
Main Developer Profiles:
George Kamitani (神谷盛治):
The creator representing Vanillaware Ltd. In charge of not only the direction, but also the scenario and mech designs of 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim.
Koichi Maenou (前納浩一):
A designer under Vanillaware. As Kamitani-shi’s assistant, he takes care of character animations as well as other areas Kamitani-shi requires help to handle for 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim .
Yukiko Hirai (平井有紀子):
A designer under Vanillaware. She was responsible for the character designs and illustrations, as well as animation and other aspects for 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim.
The characters’ added charm, born out of the creators’ own initiative
— You often hear people saying that “you can really get attached to all of the characters” in this game, but have you thought about which of the female characters seem like they’d become popular?
Kamitani: Among the girls, it’d have to be Yakushiji. We were able to create her character to resemble her concept most closely, as well as depict the ups and downs in her emotional states fittingly as well. Though, I remember being troubled when Hirai-san asked me, “Are you sure this is really necessary?” regarding Yakushiji’s apron outfit.
Hirai: Well, we still ended up doing it anyway, right?
Kamitani: I hardened my heart and replied, “Yes, it is absolutely necessary!” Even though I was hesitating on the inside, thinking, “Actually I think the story will be just fine even without it…” (laughs dryly).
Maenou: But in the end, it was great that we included it.
Hirai: We planned for Yakushiji to only appear in her apron outfit in Kurabe’s story, so the only animation poses ordered to be made for her were idle and turning poses. So I made the walking animation even though I wasn’t asked to, but now I’m told, “Apron-wearing Yakushiji doesn’t have any other animations aside from her walking animation!” (laughs).
Kamitani: If she’s able to walk around while wearing her apron, then naturally we’d want a Thought Cloud animation for her as well, or it’d be a waste. I also thought it’d be a waste to only have one panty-shot scene for Fuyusaka, so I tried to wring out more situations to use it as much as possible.
Hirai: You’re right, all the times she falls become panty-shot scenes.
Kamitani: I got scolded with, “You’re lowering the value of panty-shots!” (laughs).
— Minami only had one changing scene though!
Kamitani: That’s because I couldn’t think of any other situation for it…you can’t have her change in the middle of the road (laughs). Minami was originally supposed to be neighbours with Ogata, and I had thought of a scene where Ogata might suddenly come in while Minami was changing into her pyjamas in her room. We did write about that in the Secret File1. So, Ogata barging into the changing room in Minami’s story was a remnant of that.
Maenou: They did touch a little on that in the battle scenes.
Kamitani: Ogata’s house ended up being farther away in the final game. While we had initially planned for everyone to be classmates and neighbours, we then realised, “Wouldn’t the scene where they ride the train not make sense then?” (laughs).
— I’m sure everything will turn out fine somehow thanks to Universal Control’s power (laughs).
Maenou: That’s a phrase we often used during the latter half of development (laughs).
Kamitani: We also said stuff like, I bet Universal Control’s into short skirts.
Maenou: Since Universal Control was completed in 2188, they most likely had to rely on written documents to recreate the year 1985. So it’s hard to fault them even if it didn’t turn out completely faithful (laughs).
A cross-dressing boy born from Hirai-san’s ideas
— Among the notable characters that support the thirteen protagonists, Okino seems to be very popular, but I remember the ‘Secret File’ that came with the limited edition of the game stating that he wasn’t originally conceived as a “cross-dressing boy”2.
Kamitani: That’s right. The original inspiration for his character was this ’80s manga, Tottemo Hijikata-kun3. It’s a slapstick gag comedy manga where transfer student Toshizō Hijikata, strong in fights but weak to emotion, pairs up with Sōji Okita, a pretty boy popular among girls. I wanted to depict that sort of friendship that is almost akin to love.
Hirai: Before we even created the character, when I was instructed by Kamitani-san to “come up with some characters with distinctive traits for now”, I only had the idea of a character that would “dress up as a girl”. That led me to propose, “I want to make Okino into a cross-dressing character.”
Kamitani: At the time, while we needed Okino to have a disguise for when he’s in 1945, I didn’t really plan for the disguise to be cross-dressing in particular. However, Okino became unexpectedly popular when 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim Prologue was released. I was worried about whether I could write genres such as ‘BL‘ or ‘bromance’ well, but I realised, “I like Stop!! Hibari-kun!*1 after all, so I get the appeal!”
— Hijiyama is popular with both guys and girls, it seems.
Kamitani: It surprised me that his story would even hook people in (laughs). I wrote Hijiyama and Okino’s lines while trying to recall the excitement I felt when I read Stop!! Hibari-kun! back then, so I thought it might appeal more to male players, and I was anxious about whether it’d go over well with the female audience too.
There was also a time when I was considering having the backgrounds created for the area under the bridge where Hijiyama would have been sleeping outdoors for half a year. I think Maenou-kun would’ve liked it.
Maenou: I would’ve liked to see that (laughs).
Kamitani: He would probably do stuff like boil the river water using an empty can (laughs). He’d wash himself in the river as well, so I had thought of creating a scene where Okino would say to him, “You smell like you just came out of a swamp,” but…
Maenou: It would’ve been nice to add in lines like, “That’s strange, I thought I just took a bath 5 days ago,” but we didn’t want to cause the players to imagine the stench.
Hirai: It’d be a bit unpleasant to make the uncleanliness feel too realistic… Kamitani-san was so happily telling me all about his idea, that when I told him, “Wasn’t this supposed to be a ‘shōjo manga‘?” he made an “Ah!” face, like he had a sudden realisation… (laughs).
Kamitani: At one point, I was so intent on creating Hijiyama’s ‘vagrancy’ as a homage to Be-Bop High School, that I couldn’t restrain myself… I’m glad I was stopped in the end (laughs).
Hirai: You also mentioned wanting to make his hair all frizzy and frayed.
Kamitani: I had also thought of creating a scene where he would walk past some female students at school, prompting them to say, “Is it just me, or does something smell?” to which Hijiyama would quietly take offense, going, “…Urgh.” (laughs).
Maenou: And the characters following him might think of him as a ‘fly’ (laughs).
Kamitani: I also went wild imagining him taking a bath at the drinking fountain behind the old school building, and stuff like that (laughs).
Maenou: I love these kinds of scenarios~ (laughs).
— I’d bet he does things very differently, being someone who was transported in from 1945. Though thinking of the smell is a bit… (laughs).
Kamitani: There might even be a situation where someone catches sight of him in just his fundoshi, and he goes, “Ah, I’ve been seen!” (laughs).
Hirai: I can definitely see him in a fundoshi.
— Fundoshi are good.
Maenou: That’s not a world I’m familiar with (laughs).
Kamitani: But when I was asked, “Is this character animation really necessary for plot progression?” I came to my senses, and I couldn’t in good conscience put out the order for it to be made…
Hirai: I think we would’ve been excited to work on it if you had given the order, though.
Kamitani: Really!? (laughs). True enough, everyone really contributed creating a variety of animations during the latter half of development…
Hirai: We had a clear sense of direction for the project at that point, after all.
Hijiyama’s voice actor, Ishii-san, is a natural!? A game where the acting skills of the seiyū shine
— I felt that the pacing in the adventure segments was good, and really makes full use of the fact that the game is fully voiced.
Kamitani: Pacing was definitely important as well, but another reason was that if we made their lines too long, as the characters speak while walking, a wall of text would be displayed above their heads as they move which would cause some lines to overlap each other. In the initial stage of development, the game was designed such that the characters could move around freely even mid-conversation; there was also a feature where if you walked away without hearing the conversation to the end, the lines spoken would change. We generally avoided using that feature as we knew players wouldn’t pay as much attention to the lines spoken if the character was moving, but you can see remnants of that gimmick in Takamiya’s story, during her conversations with Aiba.
Maenou: We hadn’t really taken voices into consideration at first.
Kamitani: We were busy worrying about how to make it work gameplay-wise, and we thought, if we didn’t cut up the lines such that you’d have to press the buttons, it wouldn’t feel like you’re actually playing a game… (laughs dryly).
— Did all of you attend the voice recording sessions this time?
Kamitani: I wasn’t able to go as I was too busy.
Maenou: Kida-san (Emika Kida-shi, a designer who worked on the character design for this game alongside Hirai-shi) and I attended the recording in Kamitani-san’s place.
— Was the voice recording for this project tough as well?
Maenou: Well, since there were parts of the script that were still incomplete, we divided the recording into 5 ~ 6 sessions; however, that meant that the scripts handed to the seiyū were only partway done, and they would inevitably go, “I don’t really understand the script’s content…” So it felt like the seiyū really helped by doing what they could with their acting abilities. After everything was completed, the voices recorded even while the script was still incomplete fit together with the scenes perfectly with no issues, and from the bottom of my heart, I really felt, “I’m really glad we went with these seiyū.” I’m very thankful. At the recording studio, we would be there just to occasionally interject with “Please express this sort of feeling when speaking this line,” whenever there were parts they couldn’t decide how to execute based on just the script.
— I thought the voice recording for the Thought Cloud seemed tough to do as well.
Kamitani: Who was it that said, “Let’s add voices to that,” again?
Maenou: It’s either Kamitani-san or myself… I can’t remember who said it now, but we had already decided on having those parts be voiced by the time recording started.
Hirai: Kamitani-san, even the voices… (laughs).
Kamitani: I can’t make it for recording when I’m already working on the script! (laughs). I’m not a soba place going, “We just left!”4
Maenou: Still, it’s great that everything turned out well in the end.
Kamitani: When I was told, “Recording is already done, so you can’t add any more lines to the scenes with this seiyū‘s character,” I thought, “You’re kidding me… I wanted to make them speak in this important scene, but now I have to hurry and think of another idea for this scene or else…” That’s what I was going through at the time (laughs).
Maenou: Well, the fact that we couldn’t get the script done in time was the problem in and of itself (laughs).
Kamitani: And that’s why we rushed to add the character ‘Kengo Ogata’ in. We asked, “So it’s okay if we get another seiyū in, right?”
Hirai: From there, we began to discuss whether we would need to create artwork for this ‘Kengo Ogata’…
Kamitani: I said, “It’s fine, let’s just leave it as ‘SOUND ONLY’.”
Hirai: So we created a new ‘SOUND ONLY’ panel.
Maenou: It’d be great if the players could listen out for the voices as well while they play through the game.
Kamitani: I had wanted to edit the characters’ lines right up to the end, so I felt a bit negatively about having voice recording (laughs dryly). I was complaining to Atlus-san, “If we can’t extend the deadline, can we just give up on the voices?”
Hirai: But Kamitani-san, I remember you going, “What a great voice~” when listening to Kurabe’s voice lines.
Kamitani: I mean, if you listen to their voices, you can’t help but think that all of them sound great!
Hirai: So you’re still glad that we included voices in the end (laughs).
Kamitani: Seiyū really are amazing. Watching the scenes with their voices included really makes me feel as though I’ve written a good script.
Maenou: Speaking of seiyū, I thought Hijiyama’s voice actor, Takayuki Ishii-san, was a perfect fit for the role. It was really excellent. During the first recording session, he was telling us about his love for all the Vanillaware titles released till now; I think he also visited the Atlus × Vanillaware Cafe5 together with Okino’s voice actress, Mutsumi Tamura-san. That made me really happy to hear. Unfortunately, I haven’t had the chance to watch the roles in other works that Ishii-san has played, but as someone who attended the recording sessions, he was pretty much Hijiyama himself; I thought, it’s thanks to Ishii-san that we have the Hijiyama we know today. His voice acting of the yakisoba pan-eating scenes was so emotional, and even a little sexy. Enough that we had to tell him, “Please lower the sexiness a little!” (laughs). Really a perfect choice for the role; when I heard his line in the school cafeteria, “Your finest yakisoba pan, please!” I thought, “How does he make that Hijiyama-ness come out so easily!?” We created Hijiyama without voices, so Ishii-san really put the flesh on the bones for him. Of course, we also took into account the feedback we received from those who played the Prologue version of the game…Hijiyama was a character that everyone created together.
— I thought it was great how Hijiyama had an airhead side to him despite his gruffness, and how his voice contrasted with Okino’s gentler-sounding voice.
Kamitani: While we were able to take into account the suggestions we received from those who played Prologue and have them reflect in the final game this time, this is quite a rare case for a game. Thinking, “So this is what the players want to see…” and creating elements of the game in response to that had kind of an ad-lib feel to it. And I didn’t think the inclusion of yakisoba pan would be such a hit (laughs).
Maenou: It did pain me that we had to release a paid version of Prologue, though.
Kamitani: It made me wonder if this was how American dramas were made: seeing the viewers’ reactions, then trying to steer the show in a direction that the viewers would want. Though that doesn’t seem very feasible for games, which are usually completed in one go.
Maenou: I think it may be possible to do games in an episodic format nowadays.
Kamitani: I wonder.
Including elements from those sparkling days of youth
— Kamitani-san, what sort of youth did you experience yourself back in 1985?
Kamitani: Perfectly enough, I was a high school student at the time. Back then, I thought I would naturally become more mature and adult-like when I grow older, but I think my mental state didn’t actually change much between then and now! (laughs). I think the days everyone spends in their youth will remain vividly in their minds, but the vivid memories of my own youth are what I turned into the theme of this game. I put in all the passion I felt about those days into the game, so I have no regrets.
— Which media were you into at the time?
Kamitani: As expected, media such as anime and games. I was pretty crazy about Super Dimension Fortress Macross; I even entered Mari Ijima-san’s6 fanclub! And I even remember having a serious discussion with friends on how to get our hands on Megazone 23, since it was an OVA with ecchi7 scenes.
— So you even had such ecchi (?) memories from back then… Kamitani-san and Vanillaware-san’s illustrations also have a bit of that ecchi angle to them that gets you excited.
Kamitani: I put my foot down saying “I won’t be drawing the characters” for this game, but since they insisted, I thought, “I’ll make an illustration that’s just so barely acceptable, it won’t ever be used for anything”; that ended up being the illustration of Fuyusaka in the cockpit. It absolutely did not cross my mind that the illustration would get past the checks and even make it into a pre-order bonus PS4 theme (laughs). I thought maybe it was okay, and people would just think, “Oh, Kamitani drew another ecchi illustration again…”, but looking at the feedback from the players, including stuff like, “Since they become naked when they’re piloting the Sentinels, I thought it was an ecchi-genre game,” it made me think, “Damn it, I went too far!” (laughs dryly).
— Even the males are naked in the Sentinel-piloting scenes, which makes me happy as a fan.
Kamitani: That’s all well and good, misleading people about my preferences is what I’m aiming for!
All: (laugh).
— It really is a game filled with everyone’s, including Kamitani-san’s, sparkling memories of youth.
Kamitani: I’d even say that this game is nothing but that; the desire to make it happen was what led me to the sci-fi genre. So, it wasn’t that I was setting out to create some ‘brand-new sci-fi story that no one has ever seen before’. We managed to fit a lot into the game, but it’s a pity that the café scene we had planned for initially didn’t make it in the end. I wanted to do a scene where dishes would keep getting served while you’re in the middle of contemplating through the Thought Cloud…
Hirai: I remember you said, “We’ll feature a whole bunch of food here.”
Kamitani: I also went, “This time, the food will be spaghetti, cakes and such served at the café!” But in view of the workload required, we ended up limiting the food choices to ‘food that can be eaten in one hand’. That’s also the reason yakisoba pan was chosen.
Maenou: We had to give up on takoyaki since you can’t eat it with only one hand.
Kamitani: You might be able to tell by looking at the rough sketches of the clubroom building, but we were trying to tackle the idea of ‘separate dramatic scenes unfolding in the front and back of the same locale’, an idea our background art staff Yamashita-kun came up with. I thought it was great and began to work on it, but it turned out to be harder to implement than I thought (laughs).
What happens from here on out is in the hands of the players!?
— Playing the game made me interested in what goes on in the characters’ daily lives. So it’d make me happy to see more content that could expand on the game in the future, even if just a little bit…
Kamitani: I would say that’s up to Atlus-san and all of our players. We did come up with an idea for creating DLC as part of an intentionally-misleading PR campaign, but the opportunity for that has passed due to the schedule getting pushed back (cries). But the characters and I would be really glad to see everyone supplement the story with their own behind-the-scenes or sequel ideas! Vanillaware has already begun undertaking its next project, and producing our next work. Just because our 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim battle has ended doesn’t mean I get to slack off, as life’s clock is ticking even as I space out… So, I have to create as many works as I can before then! I hope you will look forward to our next work.
Robots were the dream. But were they just a short-lived fad!?
— It seems there had also been a fair amount of complications when it came to the designs of the ‘Sentinels’.
Kamitani: I had thought that any genre dealing with robots would be a sure-fire hit, but as it turns out, kids these days don’t actually get exposed to robot-related media that often anymore. There were many times I tried to explain how amazing robots are, only to be met with blank looks…so it’s hard to get a conversation going. I had heaped on robot motifs as I was banking on those to sell the game; I realised that in itself was my mistake (laughs dryly).
— I’ve heard that designing mecha requires a fair bit of design sense for it, and can be met with harsh criticism.
Kamitani: That’s also true, but I also realised, aren’t these robots kind of an unchanging genre? Starting with Mobile Suit Gundam, we’ve seen a whole variety of robot media in our youth. Even Neon Genesis Evangelion, which still feels like a recent release to me, is already a 20-year-old series. However, it’s hard to find a robot anime from recent times that’s similarly ubiquitous to the current youth… I only realised this when I tried to do so myself (laughs). When I try to explain to the youngsters by telling them, “It’s like the missiles you see in Super Dimension Fortress Macross…”, they’d just react to me with a “What?”, and go on to create a missile-firing scene while using real-life footage of missile firing as reference.
— When I think of robot action scenes, I do like them to be a bit flashier.
Kamitani: Exactly. I really wanted to get across that flashiness of the ‘mecha’ that evolved uniquely in Japan, but just mentioning the terms like ‘pile bunker8‘ doesn’t really get that coolness across (laughs). Don’t tell me the only ones who’d think, “Robots are cool, so as long as we put a robot in everyone will be happy!” are the people from our generation…
Maenou: Where did all the dreams go (laughs dryly).
Kamitani: In the sequel to Pacific Rim, it started leaning more towards a more Super Sentai9 feel and I thought, “No, that’s not quite it…”, but from what I hear from foreigners, it seems these kinds of robots themselves are primarily a genre aimed towards children…
Maenou: We can nurture them. Look at Avengers, for example; it’s popular in Japan now, but it wasn’t that way before. We can nurture them using 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim (laughs).
Kamitani: What a bold claim (laughs).
Maenou: But we’re not making a sequel to it (laughs).
Kamitani: So yeah, I had wanted to put extra effort into drawing the mecha, but ended up not having the time for it due to being caught up in the scenario writing. There were supposed to be many more types of Sentinels, and we’d even planned to create designs for different Sentinel variations, but fast forward to now and all we have are the original 3 that were drawn plus 1 new design. Not to mention the kaiju, which was way more than I could handle, so the task of designing the kaiju was divided between several staff members.
The Sentinel and kaiju designs, filled with love and homages to a variety of other works
— The fact that the robots are “really just heavy machinery” also shows in the rough sketches included in the limited edition bonus ‘Secret File’, I feel. It’s very convincing.
Kamitani: To tell the truth, my own designs were pretty much just an amalgamation of homages. The 1st to 4th Generation Sentinels each have their own design motifs; I think the people who know will know, you can probably see the homages to certain famous robots or mecha in the detailing on the waist, legs, hands, mouth area, etc.
— The animations that play when selecting each of the Sentinels’ armaments, showing how it looks like when the armaments are used, are also really cool!
Kamitani: Those were actually added near the end. I’ve always been saying, “It’d be nice if we could add them in,” only to be told, “That’s not possible, we don’t have enough time.” But near the end, Shigatake-kun (a designer who worked on the icon UI for the Destruction portion of the game, among other roles) and the other staff members managed to squeeze them in, thanks to their tireless efforts! Apparently the small size of the footage made it possible for them, somehow. When I asked, “Would it be possible to play an enlarged version of the animation mid-battle?” their reply was, “We didn’t make the animation in a large enough size.” (laughs).
— Do all of you have a favourite kaiju?
Kamitani: Mine has to be the G-Moler, whose design I spent the most time mulling over as well. The kaiju I drew were the ‘G-Moler’, ‘Hi-Quad’, ‘Worker’, and ‘Drillfly’. I also drew the silhouette for the ‘RPF’.
Hirai: If we’re talking solely appearance-wise, I like the APSOS, but all of the kaiju have a unique charm to each of them and look pretty cute. In fact, I drew the Amazon-exclusive bonus theme with the thought that ‘the kaiju are cute’ in mind. Kamitani-san, you weren’t the one who drew the Terra Carrier?
Kamitani: I did try drawing it for a little while but couldn’t really get it right, so I said, “Make it look kind of trilobite-y,” and just passed it off to Kobayashi-kun (Ryō Kobayashi-shi, a designer who worked on the background art for the Remembrance portion of the game, as well as participated in battle planning and other roles) (laughs). While I was drawing it, battle planning had added the detail that the Terra Carriers would enter carrying Hi-Quads, and I remember struggling to imagine how to load the Hi-Quads onto the Terra Carriers. I mean, look at how huge they are (laughs).
— It appears that the kaiju designs have deviated quite bit from the rough sketches, when you compare the two.
Kamitani: There was a point of time when we tried to make the kaiju give off a more organic feel.
Maenou: (While flipping through the kaiju sketch pages in the Secret File) You’re the one who shot that down, Kamitani-san! (laughs) We drew so many designs, yet they all couldn’t be used…
Kamitani: I asked for them to be redone, stating that they “didn’t have the heavy machinery feel”. Though I probably ended up sounding more mean, like, “Make it more heavy machine-like.” (laughs dryly).
Maenou: Kamitani-san set the bar so high that even all our skilled designers are saying, “I can’t draw mecha.” It was tough (laughs dryly).
Kamitani: But it’s easy to understand, right? I told Kida-san, (Emika Kida-shi, a designer who worked on the character design for this game alongside Hirai-shi) “They look a bit too kaiju-like, so make them more heavy machine-like instead”!!
Hirai: Weren’t you telling us before to make them “look more organic”? (laughs).
Maenou: Like an organism, yet heavy machinery at the same time, right?
Kamitani: Right, right. At first glance it’d seem like an organism, but its parts would consist of heavy machinery. While helping out with the drawing, Kobayashi-kun asked me, “So what sort of feel do you want the kaiju to give off?”, to which I replied, “Something with an unusual silhouette, kind of like the Twin Tail from Return of Ultraman, would be great.” And so the sketch I received was exactly that, a ‘Twintail’ (laughs).
All: (laugh).
— We were all talking about the Twintail in the editorial department, too. Also, the RPF looks kind of similar to the ‘Crazygon‘ (a robot kaiju that appears in Ultraseven), don’t you think?
Kamitani: Yes, that’s exactly it! So it does show, I’m glad to hear that.
— By the way, the Drum Mine is also quite popular among the editorial staff for its cute looks.
Hirai: It really does have a round, cute appearance.
Kamitani: The Drum Mines feel sort of like a bonus character, maybe? I was also told by the test players that, once you know that you can get the enemies caught up in its explosion, you can easily clear the stage by using the Drum Mines against them.
— Personally speaking, I’d love to see figures of the kaiju and Sentinels.
Hirai: I’d like to see a Hi-Quad figure get made, myself. It has an adorable shape.
— It’d be nice if I could line up a dozen tiny APSOS along my desk.
Maenou: Oh, it’d be awesome if you could lay out a bunch of tiny metallic figurines and use them to recreate a battle scene.
Kamitani: I’d be fine even with something not as high quality as that. Something like ‘kinkeshi10‘, maybe (laughs).
Mazinger Z was also used as a motif!? And other ideas that didn’t make it in…
— How was the production like for the ‘Secret File’ that was included with the Premium Box edition?
Kamitani: Everyone was so unfair to me. For the pages where we showed off the original rough sketches we’d done, they got to clean up their sketches! Whereas mine just got put in as is, you know? Though they told me, “It’s alright, that gives it its flavour” (laughs). But y’all totally fixed yours up! I wanted to fix mine up too!! There were designs such as the Fuji (a fabled, gigantic Sentinel that now exists only as a design sketch, and doesn’t appear in the game) and others…that I really wished I could include in the game. I had envisioned it making its debut by splitting the sea into two, something akin to Mazinger Z11… It was originally established that the Sentinel, which was under repair, would be hidden by an island at the naval port. Hijiyama would take Miura aboard a kaibōkan, where they would watch the Fuji surface, leading Miura to comment in shock, “So this is the weapon that will end the war…” But in the end, we couldn’t devote this much effort to a single Sentinel just for this one debut scene… (cries).
— I can see that your plans were filled to the brim with ‘things you wanted to do’, Kamitani-san. The ‘Secret File’ had so many character sketches inside that it was a very fun read.
Maenou: There were many great sketches, weren’t there? Like the one of the man going on a walk.
Kamitani: There were so many great character ideas, but in the context of “in the year ’85?”, some were a little hard to use…
Maenou: How about Professor Douji?
Kamitani: Right, he’s the character about whom I said, “Make him give off a similar vibe to Dr. Kabuto12 from Mazinger Z!”
Hirai: You mentioned that he’d manage to say some important information before passing away.
Kamitani: That’s right, it wouldn’t be Mazinger without that (laughs).
You can’t depict the year 1985 without these! Little details that add the spice to bring it to life
— Seeing “Midnight Meow Meow” and “Back 2 Front”13 mentioned raised a laugh out of me (laughs).
Kamitani: That was added in by Hiroshi Nishimura-san (the planner in charge of the Remembrance script, as well as the initial stage of the Destruction portion of the game), who’s familiar with that time period.
— So what was the deal with Ogata’s handkerchief on the rooftop?
Kamitani: Oh, that wasn’t put there for any particular reason; that handkerchief was initially just an item that was placed in the background art. Then we thought, we had to use it for something…
Maenou: We didn’t have to go out of our way just to find a way to make use of it (laughs).
Kamitani: During the test plays, everyone would try to inspect the handkerchief, only to be unable to interact with it. That’s when I thought, “We have to add something to it.”
Hirai: But I think you were the only one who was bothered by it, weren’t you, Kamitani-san? (laughs).
Kamitani: In the meantime, we came up with the detail that ‘Ogata often hangs out on the rooftop’, allowing us to make use of the handkerchief.
Maenou: I feel that it really helped to showcase the gap in Ogata’s character, since he is a rich kid after all (laughs).
Kamitani: I also did think of having the handkerchief be something he received from Kisaragi, but it was an ordeal to think of how to fit that detail into the timeline, so… (laughs dryly).
— There’s a shooting game that was being played at Amiguchi’s house; what did you base that game on?
Kamitani: I didn’t give any particular instructions for that. Taking the time period into account, the console was probably a Famicom, an SC/SG-series console, or a Master System (a video game console released by Sega).
Maenou: Speaking of the gameplay screen that’s shown on the TV screen, it was originally supposed to resemble a certain shooting game more closely; however, we thought, “Actually, this looks so similar that it could get us in trouble.” (laughs). So, we changed it completely.
Because it’s a brand new title, we couldn’t afford to minimise it
— Hindsight is 20/20, but I like that this game’s story leaves considerable room for imagination. While the sci-fi mystery elements keep pulling you further into the plot, it also allows for the imagining of scenarios on how the protagonists lead their daily lives.
Kamitani: In the final product, some of the characters meet each other for the first time in the Destruction segment; however, in the initial plot, we had planned for all of the characters to get to know each other before moving on to the battle portion. The initial plan was that for each of the thirteen protagonists, there would be 12 routes corresponding to each of the remaining characters, for a total of 156 routes, but we had to halve the content due to production time constraints… Either way, as a result of having to prioritise the solving of the world’s mysteries, we ended up having to tearfully cut out anecdotes and friendship-building episodes that would’ve changed the relationships between the various characters (laughs dryly). Some of the details and scenarios from the cut parts were then used in the battle portion conversations. That said, even in the event that Atlus-san tells us, “We’ll give you all the time you need, so add in all 156 routes” in the future (but they won’t say that, of course), it’s not possible anymore. We had to perform major surgery on the plot to get it to its current state, so trying to add what we had originally planned for back in would be akin to redoing everything from scratch; not only that, it may also lead to outcomes the players do not desire for some of the characters. So, we’d like for players as they play through the game to think, “This scene wasn’t shown in the game, but I think it happened this way?” and be able to treat the scenarios they come up with as the ‘correct’ scenarios. It would make me glad if you could supplement the story with your own imagination.
Maenou: After clearing the game, the event ‘Infinite Possibilities’ is added to the Analysis portion; I’d like everyone to think that that is everyone’s own version of 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim.
Kamitani: After reading various impressions and thoughts from players, it made me think, “It might be for the best not to say any more.” I await the passionate power of everyone’s imagination!
— “Creating an experimental game comes with so many hardships…” That’s what I thought, but we were able to meet this wonderful game thanks to that.
Kamitani: While this applies to everything I’ve left half-written, I’ve lived in that world for too long… So right now, the feeling of ‘loss’ I have is immense. I should be making a fresh start and moving on to the next project, and yet…
— Though, I think it’s rare that a created work actually ends up using 100% of the content that was planned for it.
Kamitani: On the contrary, Dragon’s Crown managed to go over 100%. I know people are looking forward to a Dragon’s Crown ‘2’, but I’ve already emptied out all the stories and ideas I have for it (laughs). Though I could probably make a game that resembles Dragon’s Crown, yet is different at the same time…
— Basiscape’s Hitoshi Sakimoto-san had also mentioned, “When the game he’s currently working on descends into chaos, Kamitani-san would start thinking of plans for a different game,” so is there anything you feel like creating at the moment?
Kamitani: Oh, there’s plenty! There are also ongoing projects that I’m directing. As for Vanillaware as a whole, we also have to devote all of our efforts to the project Noma-kun (Takafumi Noma-shi, a programmer at Vanillaware who was also in charge of the illustrations for a portion of store-exclusive bonuses) is directing, the same one that a teaser for was included with 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim Prologue. I think that game will be easier to understand than 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim was (laughs). It’s only now that I realised what a cryptic game I’ve created with 13 Sentinels.
Hirai: Wouldn’t you say you left a lasting mark?
— I feel that its ‘crypticness’ might’ve been what led it to being accepted among gamers as ‘something new’.
Kamitani: But usually, you’d think that it’s hard for people to get into something that’s ‘too cryptic to understand’ (laughs).
— When I tried to think of what this game’s catchphrase would be, or who’d be the game’s target audience, I realised I couldn’t think of any title right away; however, the reason for that was actually quite simple: there just hasn’t been any similar game in the past.
Kamitani: True enough, there weren’t really any past works I could use as a reference while creating the game, so it was a tough process. If you ask me who’s the game’s target audience, I’d say the target audience is ‘me’; it’s a concentration of all the things I find great. At first, while discussing with Atlus-san, I had talked about the possibility of advertising the game wrongly on purpose as an experiment, since we didn’t know the right way to sell this game. I thought it might be fun putting out misleading advertisements each time, something like “a game about the exploits of a magical girl”, and “a delinquent manga-style game”… Well, things never work out the way you want them to. When I pitched that to one of the producers, they told me, “You should definitely not do that.” (laughs).
— The 13 Sentinels News that was distributed at Tokyo Game Show was basically an entire page of fake news, but we had fun creating it (laughs).
Maenou: Oh, that. That was really funny (laughs).
Kamitani: That’s the kind of feel I wanted to go for, or that’s what I thought seeing Atlus-san stumped on how to market the game when we couldn’t talk about its contents (laughs dryly). But this game took too long to develop. I’m already 50 years old, so even if I take 4 years to make 1 game, I’d only be able to make another 7 games before I reach 80… How I wish there were some way to create a stylish-looking game in just 2 years. I guess that’s impossible…
(The 13 Sentinels News PDF file in Japanese can be downloaded from Atlus’s official website here.)
Vanillaware is looking for new creators!!
— Vanillaware-san gives off a strong image of ‘a diverse group of artists’, and is often looking for new talent, but are there any points or things you would be glad to see in a new hire?
Kamitani: If you ask me, I’d be glad to welcome people who love games. Lately, they don’t even let me do interviews anymore. When I do the interviewing, I tend to go, “Alright, let’s just bring them on board first to try!” but they’d tell me not to be so hasty (laughs).
Maenou: I’ve seen assumptions that “even the programmers and planners here have to be able to draw”, but I’d like to stress that that is absolutely not the case (laughs).
Kamitani: I did state in the past that “everyone in Vanillaware is an artist”, but I don’t mean that everyone here has the ability to draw pictures; what I wanted to say was that “everyone here has the discerning eye to be able to create works”.
— To all game lovers out there, Vanillaware-san awaits you!
Fuyusaka, Morimura, Chihiro — The characters created after countless complications
— I feel that as you unravel the mystery of the plot, one of the characters who stands out in particular for the importance of their role is Fuyusaka. She makes an appearance in various different forms (?), so I imagine it must’ve been hard for her seiyū to portray her as well…
Maenou: Fuyusaka’s seiyū, that would be Atsumi Tanezaki-san. Having to play several roles as one person must’ve been tough, I imagine we asked quite a lot of her…
Kamitani: Though, that was exactly what we had conceptualised Fuyusaka as: ‘A woman who illustrates the charms of each age group’. I created the scenario while thinking it’d be nice to be able to show how there are different facets to a woman’s charm. It’s just…at the time when 13 Sentinel Prologue was released, the true identity of child Chihiro was intended to be Ms. Morimura, and the plot surrounding that was supposed to play out differently. However, the story changed due to a large portion of the plot having to be cut out; while we were working on Gouto’s story, which was the final story, we ended up not being able to explain all of the mysteries (laughs dryly). After struggling with, “Who’s left who can give away the plot!?” we settled on changing her identity to ‘Professor Morimura’. Under normal circumstances, you’d think, “You sure everything will still remain consistent if you introduce a new plot point at THIS stage!?”.
— So you changed it after Prologue!?
Maenou: We were really breaking out in cold sweat (laughs). But this is exactly the sort of time when the ‘Bible’*2 came in handy. When we asked Atlus’s QA team to check, “Is this change okay to make?” and they replied, “Yes, it’s okay!” I found myself going, “Oh, thank goodness…!”
Hirai: I had thought ‘multi-role Fuyusaka’ ended with Ms. Morimura, so when I was told we’d need to add yet another role to her repertoire… (laughs).
Kamitani: At the initial stage, or rather back when the project was still to be pitched to another company, we didn’t intend to delve that deeply into what had happened in 2188.
What I wanted to depict was the earnest efforts of humans
— I thought the ’40-year intervals’ between the eras depicted in the game was such a perfectly-calculated quantity.
Kamitani: The first time period that I wanted to depict was 1985, and the next was the wartime era; that’s how the decision to separate them by intervals of 40 years came about. Both of these time periods belong to the Shōwa era, but to tell the truth, I was hoping to be able to use the nengō14 for 2025 in the game as well. In real world happenings, it was just about time for the Heisei era to switch to the next nengō, so I was waiting all, “Hurry… Hurry and tell us what the new nengō will be…” However, thinking back now that the new nengō has been revealed, I wondered if the players would see through my self-satisfied look when they hear “Reiwa”, “Reiwa” being chanted all the time, and so I left it as is.
— For a story like this, the fact that the love interests of each of the characters is fixed to just their respective love interest caught me off guard.
Kamitani: That’s because the game was conceptualised to be like a shōjo manga. Back when there were still 12 routes for each of the protagonists’ scenarios, Sekigahara would appear in Fuyusaka’s story and a shōjo manga-like storyline was supposed to play out: “Does he have feelings for Fuyusaka or Shinonome? Who will he gravitate towards…!?” However, after we altered the routes, we weren’t able to implement that anymore as we had no choice but to focus on the other half of her story, regarding the mystery behind her dreams and how her love develops.
— In this game, not only do we get to see the ‘classic love story progression’, we also see some romances that play out in more unorthodox ways; I could very much feel the intertwining of their various ‘destinies’.
Kamitani: It was hard work even for the ‘classic’ romances, as we just had to add a surprise in there somewhere. Since this game uses shōjo manga as its motif, it’s natural that love would be at the root of it all, but what I also wanted to depict was the ‘earnest efforts of humans’. Whatever their motives or drive, I wanted to depict each of them ‘committing to their feelings’, and what amazing feats can result when they see that commitment through. When I had the image of something like Two Years’ Vacation for the story, I was thinking about portraying the passionate friendships between characters; however, once girls got into the picture, the relationships likely wouldn’t remain as simply friendship and would possibly blossom into romance. So I thought the relationships would be easier to understand if they were simply portrayed as romance from the start, and perhaps the players would feel better about it as well. Atlus’s producer, Akiyasu Yamamoto-san, had previously talked about how the theme for this game is ‘love’, but at the time, I thought that description felt slightly off. Looking back, this is the reason why. If it were ‘destined love’, you would call it a miracle, but I’d say their committed feelings can turn into ‘destiny’ itself.
— I was also surprised to see the eventual outcomes of the characters’ relationships being shown in the game.
Kamitani: We had planned to do that ‘class reunion’ since the very beginning; however, it was conceived as a ‘true ending’ in our initial plan. There was a point of time when the game mechanics were such that even if you did not complete the Remembrance portion, you would still be able to view the normal ending as long as you achieved 100% completion in the Destruction portion. That normal ending ended up being shorter than we had envisioned, and so we decided to merge them into a single ending. We were also concerned as we thought, “This probably isn’t the kind of game that people would replay multiple times” (laughs).
— But it’s fun to come across new discoveries and realisations on subsequent playthroughs!
Kamitani: I fully expect that players might not be able to notice all of the foreshadowings and the reveals they foreshadow during their first playthrough, but I wanted to challenge myself to create a story where players could still go, “This is interesting!” despite not noticing over half of the foreshadowings. Though whether I actually achieved that is something even I’m not sure of myself…
— If you ask me, I think this has become a game that will continue to be talked about for the next 10 years.
Kamitani: There are people who didn’t like how the story wrapped up, so I think it’s just kind of a weird game with its own pros and cons.
In the end, the supplementing of details is left up to the player’s imagination
— It did shock me that all, and I mean all, of the important characters got to achieve what they desired, even characters like Mr. Ida and Chihiro; I found myself going, “Is such a perfect happy ending really possible!?”
Kamitani: Since child Chihiro stole all of the good parts where Ida was supposed to be doing the explaining, we had Ida play the role of the bad guy instead. Shinonome is another character whom the staff members were also uncertain about with regard to whether she would be liked by the players. The animator who created the animations for Shinonome, Murakami-kun (Akira Murakami-shi, the designer who was in charge of creating animations for various characters, such as Shinonome), was also mumbling sadly, “I hope she becomes well-liked…” So I replied, “Sorry about that, then how about I make Shinonome look good in the countdown illustrations? Then she’s sure to explode in popularity!” (laughs).
— And so you took the drawing in an ecchi direction to mislead everyone (laughs).
Hirai: Kamitani-san, if I recall right, didn’t you say, “I don’t think anyone else will draw Shinonome”?
Kamitani: Yeah, I did. But Murakami-kun also worked hard on his drawing of Shinonome, and so our character choices overlapped. Well, I should’ve expected that Murakami-kun would draw her.
Hirai: During development, Shinonome seemed to me like the kind of character who would try to shoulder too much by herself, and so I was always worried about whether she’d be popular with the players.
Maenou: Though, the other characters do make some pretty grave blunders as well.
Hirai: But Shinonome’s blunders are easy to see and spotlight is even placed on them, so I was worried that Shinonome might attract all the hate; I remember bringing this up bluntly to Kamitani-san too.
Kamitani: I think we might’ve been able to soften the perception of her if we had been able to depict what happened in 2188 in a more in-depth manner, but we were unfortunately unable to do so.
Maenou: I find myself thinking, “If only I could show more of Shinonome’s cute side by depicting her daily life in the present day…” Like how she got along with Sekigahara, for example.
— It seems like Shinonome and Gouto have quite a complicated relationship, but the act of when Gouto calls out to Shinonome leaves you with an impression of his kindness, and it puts me at ease as a Shinonome fan.
Kamitani: We added in the backstory that the two of them used to date each other to the battle converstions, but now I wonder if it was a redundant addition. In our original plan, that backstory was supposed to have been touched upon during Sekigahara and Gouto’s Remembrance portions.
Hirai: I was also uneasy about having Sekigahara be the only one not appearing in the ending, but even when I brought up my concerns to Kamitani-san, he wouldn’t listen and he just said, “Sekigahara isn’t the kind of guy who’d take part in festive parties like these.”
Kamitani: I was thinking that Sekigahara probably isn’t someone who likes hanging out in a group, so… But you’re right, we did put in the foreshadowing where Fuyusaka asks him if they could go somewhere on his motorcycle after the fight’s over… Well, 5 years did pass, so I’m sure something must’ve happened during that time, right?
Maenou: As to what exactly happened, it’d be great if all our players could fill in the blanks with their own interpretations. It would make us glad to see such responses to our work as well.
Notes not marked with asterisks were added by me. Notes marked with asterisks were taken and translated from the artbook interview itself.
1Note: The ‘Secret File’ is a mini-artbook that came with the Premium Box edition of the Japanese version of 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim. It mentions this about Minami and Ogata: “In the initial plot of the game, Minami was neighbours and childhood friends with Ogata, and they would talk to each other through the windows on the second floor of each of their houses during their youth. However, this plan was changed as it would require a lot of assets to be drawn that couldn’t be used elsewhere, such as Minami wearing pyjamas and Minami’s room.”
2Note: The ‘Secret File’ mentions this under the ‘Director’s Comment’ for Hijiyama: “Okino was later changed into a cross-dressing character, and Hijiyama’s story turned into a story about uncovering his inclinations.”
3Note: Tottemo Hijikata-kun (とってもひじかた君, lit. Very Hijikata-kun) is a manga by Wayu Suzumiya first serialised in 1983. A school gag manga, it features a duo comprising quick-to-anger problem student Toshizō Hijikata and honour student Sōji Okita, based on the real-life Shinsengumi members Toshizō Hijikata and Sōji Okita respectively.
4Note: ‘A soba place going, “We just left!”‘ is a joke about giving an irresponsible reply or excuse when you’re running late on something. It is said to have come from soba restaurants running late on fulfilling delivery orders, causing angry customers to phone in and ask about their order, to which the soba restaurant would reply that the deliveryman “just left” in an attempt to appease the customer.
5Note: The Atlus × Vanillaware Cafe “Rabbit Kitchen” was a collaboration cafe held at the Sega Collaboration Cafe in Akihabara from October 5th, 2019 to October 27th, 2019. It featured food, drinks, and merchandise from Odin’s Sphere, Dragon’s Crown, and 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim; the available items can be seen here.
6Note: Mari Ijima debuted as the seiyū of Lynn Minmay, one of the main characters from Super Dimension Fortress Macross, who becomes an idol singer and film star on board the spacecraft SDF-1 Macross.
7Note: Ecchi is a Japanese slang term that can be used with the meaning of “sexy”, “dirty” or “naughty”; in a similar vein, “H scenes” or “ecchi scenes” refer to sexually explicit scenes.
8Note: The ‘pile bunker’ is a fictional weapon, in which a large metallic spike or construction pile is thrust forward at high speed to pierce an enemy’s armour at close-range. It was first featured in Armoured Trooper VOTOMS, devised by director Ryōsuke Takahashi, as the weapon of the Berserga. Since then, the weapon has been featured and used by mecha in various other media. (The TV Tropes page on the pile bunker can be viewed here.)
9Note: Super Sentai (lit. Super Squadron) is a live-action franchise aimed primarily at children, featuring teams of protagonists who transform into superheroes; the franchise is adapted into Power Rangers for the American audience. The sequel to Pacific Rim, Pacific Rim: Uprising, features Jaegers (giant robots) fighting in a team in a similar fashion to Super Sentai.
10Note: Kinkeshi is a line of collectible erasers shaped like figurines of characters from the Kinnikuman (lit. Muscle Man) franchise; the name ‘kinkeshi’ is derived from Kinnikuman and keshi, a Japanese word for eraser.
11Note: Mazinger Z is a super robot manga series written and illustrated by Gō Nagai, first serialised in 1972; it was later adapted into an anime television series which aired on Fuji TV from December 1972 to September 1974. The ‘sea-splitting’ scene can be seen in the opening animation here.
12Note: Doctor Juzo Kabuto is a character from Mazinger Z; he is the scientist who created the titular robot Mazinger Z, as well as the grandfather of the protagonist, Koji Kabuto. (Mazinger Z spoilers) In the show, Dr. Kabuto suffers a fatal injury and passes away after telling Koji about the Mazinger Z robot.
13Note: The TV show “Midnight Meow Meow” (Japanese: 夕闇にゃーにゃー Yūyami Nyā Nyā, lit. Evening Meow Meow) and the pop stars “Back 2 Front” (Japanese: 後ろ前逆さ組 Ushiromae Sakasagumi, lit. Back to Front Reversed Group) are mentioned by background characters in Hijiyama’s story. “Midnight Meow Meow” is a reference to the television variety show Yūyake Nyan Nyan (lit. Sunset Meow Meow), which aired on Fuji TV from 1985 to 1987. “Back 2 Front”/Ushiromae Sakasagumi is a reference to Ushiroyubi Sasaregumi, a subgroup of Onyanko Club, an all-girl Japanese pop idol group that debuted on Yūyake Nyan Nyan in 1985.
14Note: Nengō, or Japanese era name, is a name assigned to an era within the Japanese era calendar scheme; since the Meiji Restoration, each nengō corresponds to an emperor’s rule, and a new era is named after a new emperor succeeds the throne. The Shōwa era spans 1926 to 1989; in the Japanese version of the game, some characters refer to the year as Shōwa 20 (1945) and Shōwa 60 (1985). The era starting from 2019 is the Reiwa era; 2025 would have been Reiwa 7.
*1Note: Stop!! Hibari-kun! – A manga by Hisashi Eguchi-sensei serialised in 1983, it is a slapstick love(?) comedy between high school student Kōsaku Sakamoto, and a cross-dressing boy who looks perfectly like a beautiful girl, Hibari Ōzora.
*2Note: Bible – A document detailing the chronology of the game’s complicated story, created by Atlus’s QA team; it is also used by the development team to cross-check for any contradictions in the scenarios. It cannot be released publicly due to the abundance of spoilers!?
garm's translations 
